Messiah women's team may or may not be strong enough to win a national title in 2005. Time and opposition will tell. But does Coach F. have what it takes to lead his team to a national title? Can he avoid the miscues that have hurt his team's chances of winning the national title the past two years?
D3Soccer Message Board
Is Coach ready for prime time?
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 observer |
Is Coach ready for prime time? |
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Posts: 5 09/27/05 08:27 PM |
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FalconAlum02 |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #1 | ||
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Posts: 784 09/27/05 08:51 PM |
I'd be interested in hearing you elaborate on these miscues. Are you talking about specific miscues in certain games, or are you talking about something more general.
The thing that has kept the Falcons from winning championships, IMHO, is a lack of offensive punch against top-tier defenses. Their defense is as good as anyone in the country. I mean, look at it, in 2002, the team made it to the final, but they won two games in a row on penalty kicks after scoreless ties to do it. The Puget Sound game in last year's semis was a disaster, but I didn't see anything I could attribute to coaching. The girls got shell-shocked by a weird goal 10 seconds in and were punched out before they could recover, and were overall beaten by a better, and physically stronger (particularly in the midfield) team. So I guess if you attribute the lack of offensive punch to Coach Frey, I would see that point. Otherwise, I'd be curious to hear about what you've seen as miscues. |
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observer |
Is Coach ready for prime time? | #2 | ||
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Posts: 5 09/28/05 10:26 PM |
Thanks for your reply. You made a good point about Messiah's offence. With regard to your questions, below are my comments:
Let me start with the Regional semi in 2003. With a gale wind blowing down the field, Coach Frey makes a decision that even most youth coaches would find indefensable. With Messiah's choice of which end to defend, Coach declines to take the wind, and instead chooses to defend against the wind in the first half. The opponent takes full advantage of coach's mistake and scores the only goal of the match with the wind in the first half. In the second half, with the opponents defence predictably packed in, and when Messiah was desparate for a goal, he takes off the field a proven, tough goal scoring senior, Holly S.(ending her career) and subs in a weak player, a freshman, who is physically overmatched and contributes nothing. Messiah loses a game it should have won. Coach did not give Messiah its best chance to win. Then in 2004, Messiah is blessed with a number of talented freshman, including Annie Futato who is a goal scoring machine. Annie scores 21 goals and is a gamer. Most coaches would play Annie every second that they could. Instead of starting Annie, coach Frey starts and plays #__ who, during the entire 22 game season starting every game at forward, scores a grand total of 2 goals. In the national semi-finals, do you think coach would give Messiah its best chance to win by playing its top goal scorer? No. Annie sits the bench while weak player starts and once again is totally overmatched. While Messiah's best goal scorer is sitting on the bench, Puget Sound capitalizes quickly, effectively ending the game. Its fairly embarassing when Coach Frey doesn't start a player(Annie) who others recognize and honor by naming her to the All America team. Lets look at 2005. Coach Frey is once again starting the same weak player every game at forward, with stronger players relagated to the bench. What is the point? Coach Frey, IMHO,has made, and continues to make, errors of judgment that effect Messiah's chances of beating top competition. Coach Frey is building a track record of not recognizing certain problems and making the appropriate adjustments. The question remains - Does Coach Frey have what it takes to lead Messiah to a national title? |
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Go Falcons |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #3 | ||
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Posts: 296 09/29/05 12:14 PM |
Time will tell whether coach Frey can bring them to a championship.
When it comes to line up decisions, I have to remind myself as a fan I don't have the full picture. I observe how the players perform on the field and make judgements on that basis. What I don't see is how players work and act off the field. I also am not privy to the coaches criteria for deciding playing time. |
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FalconAlum02 |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #4 | ||
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Posts: 784 09/29/05 03:56 PM |
Quote: See, in my mind, given the team Coach had in 2003, that's the call I make. Messiah was the same defensive stallworth that it has been for the last year, and was a very mediocre offensive team. Taking the wind in the first half puts the pressure on the offense to go out and score, because chances are going to be few and far between in the 2nd. Taking the wind in the second half puts the onus on the defense to keep the opponent off the board in that half, knowing that the offense will have all the chances in the 2nd. If I have the 2003 Messiah women's team and you ask me to make a choice between asking my defense to come up big or my offense, I take the defense every time. No questions asked, no regrets. Hindsight is 20/20, and just because something doesn't work out, doesn't make it a bad decision. Messiah could have easily been shutout with the wind in the first half and been up against it in the second half. Soccer is like any other sport or game, sometimes you make a good decision and it doesn't work, sometimes you make a bad decision and it goes well. Quote: In order to even be considered for All-America status, you have to be nominated by your coach for All-Region, and each coach gets 4 picks. So clearly, Coach Frey wasn't keeping Annie on the bench because he didn't think she was one of his best players. She was obviously in his top 4, as she would have been on anyone's list. Why he chose to use her off the bench (she got starter's minutes in all the games I saw BTW, including the 3 most important games of the year) I can't say for sure, but I imagine he liked what he saw in the beginning of the year when he brought her fresh legs in against defenders who had already been playing for a bit. The idea that her not starting had something to do with the way the Puget Sound game went down.... The first goal came 41 seconds in, before the Messiah forwards had even had a chance to make any kind of impact on the game. It was due to a defensive breakdown that had nothing to do with the folks up front. And unless I'm mistaken, Annie had been in the game for quite sometime when the other 2 goals went on the board 25 and 35 minutes into the half. Messiah lost to Puget Sound because they got physically dominated in the midfield. They were never able to generate any kind of offensive build. Hannah, Annie, and some of the other forwards were individually talented enough to create some shots, but Messiah was never really able to attack with any kind of numbers. And you can nitpick individual player usages all you want. Here's the bottom line for me. Coach Frey is starting his 6th year at Messiah. In all likelihood, he will win his 100th game on Saturday, against 8 losses. When he took over the program, a conference title was a huge acheivement. Now the conference title is an assumption. A conference loss would be national news. The women, I believe, had never been to the NCAAs before 2000. They haven't missed a dance since. 2 Final Fours in 5 years. And let's not forget, he took Alma (there's a real national power) to the men's Final Four the year before he came to Messiah. It's not fair to compare anyone to Dave Brandt, but Coach Frey compares quite favorably if you look at their first 5 years with the program, the notable exception being Coach Brandt's title in his 4th year. Frankly, I don't think we're even having this discussion if Coach Brandt isn't doing what he's doing with the men's program. Because by any standard short of that, Coach Frey's first 5 years at Messiah have been a rousing success. But when the boys are running off 3 titles in those same 5 years, it's easy to get greedy. |
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observer |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #5 | ||
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Posts: 5 10/05/05 06:36 AM |
Good points again, but I must differ.
A coach who does not take advantage of a gale wind hurts his team, no matter what mental gymnastics he uses to justify his decision. You take the wind and bury your opponent under 3 or 4 wind-aided goals and then let your defense go to work in the second half. The fact of the matter is that the wind can change direction or completely die down in the second half. ALWAYS take the wind. NEVER give your opponenet an advantage. Coach should have taken the gift he was given. As for 2004, again the point of my comments about the Puget Sound match is that coach weakened Messiah's chances of winning that match by not starting Annie Futato. If you are a coach and you have a 20 goal scorer and a 2 goal scorer and you are going for the national title, which player do you start? By starting the 2 goal scorer, coach put Messiah at a disadvantage. Maybe Puget Sound was a better side and maybe they weren't. Because coach didn't put Messiah's best 11 out there to start the game, we will never know. This year, it is the same thing. What is aggravating in the extreme is that Messiah has a terrific team - a team that can compete for the national title. But it is my opinion that Scott Frey simply lacks either the judgment or the strength to make the right decisions for Messiah College. As for his record, yes it is good. He gets terrific talent and trains his teams well. But Messiah's national level opponents take advantage of the openings Scott Frey gives them. Unless he opens his eyes and starts doing what has to be done, Messiah won't get out of the Regionals again this year. And it won't be for a lack of talent. |
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HoundsProud |
wrong | #6 | ||
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Posts: 13 10/05/05 09:41 AM |
observer - your posts are wrong on several levels. To personally call out and abuse a Division III college student-athlete on a website is disgusting and morally wrong. You may criticize tactics and decisions made by the coaching staff, but to write about a single player drips with jealousy.
For someone to be so informed about the Messiah women's program and post something that goes against everything philosophy followed by the school is just plain wrong. As for criticizing the Coach, you are definitely reaching!! Only a few criticisms over 6 years of brilliance. Find something else to do!! |
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FalconAlum02 |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #7 | ||
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Posts: 784 10/05/05 04:47 PM |
Quote: When you win 100 games and go to two Final Fours in your first 5+ years at a D3 program with a program that had never even seen the NCAAs, you can coach the game. When you go to a Final Four on the men's side with Alma, you can coach the game. This is ridiculous. The only thing that can even be considered close to a mark on his record is the lack of a title, and I have a really hard time putting that as a black mark on a guy only 5 years in. Has Messiah lost some big games in his tenure? Sure. Have they won as many or more? Absolutely. If we get a few more years down the road and they are consistently getting to the Final Four without getting it done (in the mold of another fall program at Messiah), then there would be more room for this discussion. The thing with how Annie Futato with used... he wasn't giving them the best chance to win? Well, somehow they still managed to beat Mary Washington, TCNJ, etc along with pretty much everyone else last year employing that strategy. Coach knew every bit how good Annie Futato is and was (like I said, he picked her as one of his 4 nominations for All-Region) and decided how he would use her. I didn't hear anyone calling Gregg Popovich an idiot when he starting using Manu Ginobli off the bench with the San Antonio Spuers again this year, despite the fact that he was clearly the 2nd best player on the team, and the best at his position. He determined that the best way to get the best production out of his whole team over the course of an entire game was to bring him off the bench. I suspect Coach Frey had a similar perspective last year. Coaches tend to know their team much better than any fan, no matter how die-hard. And you can always nitpick individual decisions. I look at the big picture, and the big picture is a resume over 5 years that all but a handful of programs would fall over themselves for. I will say this one last time, Messiah was physically dominated in the midfield by Puget Sound. They didn't get more than 1 good attack with numbers the whole game, whether Annie was on the field or not (and again, she was on the field way more often than she wasn't, even if she didn't play the first minutes). If the defense hadn't been rocked back by the early breakdown and goal, Messiah could have made a game out of it. But they would have been hard pressed to score no matter how long they played, which has always been Messiah's achillies heel at the highest level. You say we don't know who was the better side? I do, it was Puget Sound. Not 3 goals better on most days, but better. The fact that Annie Futato played the last 30-40 minutes of the first half rather than the first, inconsequential. The Falcons weren't any more dangerous when she was out there. She's a finisher, and the team didn't give her or anyone else much to finish that day. Your continual assault on Cali Pitchel is revolting, which is why I didn't address it in my last post and won't address it any further here, except to say, I don't agree with your assessment, but it is obvious that disagreeing with you about it would just be a waste of type. Scott Frey has had a great first 5 years at Messiah. His 6th year is shaping up very well, as Messiah is dominating what is probably the most difficult early schedule they have played, with a returning first team All-American sidelined since the opener with an injury. Time may prove you right, but at this point I don't see nearly enough evidence to suggest that Coach Frey isn't an asset to this team rather than a hindrence. |
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observer |
Re: wrong | #8 | ||
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Posts: 5 10/06/05 07:12 AM |
HoundsProud
I wasn't going to respond to your post, but decided - what the heck. That is what these discussion boards are all about. I may be right about the issue, or I may be "wrong on several levels" as you state. I happen to believe I am right. But my description of an adult college soccer player in a discussion board as "weak" does not constitute "calling out" or "abuse" . If you find the word "weak" disgusting and morally wrong, then so be it. But I find the use of the term "calling out" and the word "abuse" intellectually dishonest. You demean the real meaning of those words by using them in the context of the discussion. If it is your position that the strengths or weakness of individual adult college players must not be discussed on this discussion board, than explain why. Never the less, if you have watched Messiah play and differ with my description of the particular player's capabilities as a player, then post your facts and prove me wrong. As far as me being allowed to criticize tactics and decisions made by the coaching staff -- thank you for your permission. And as to your statement "to write about a single player drips with jealousy" - I don't know what to make of that one since I don't know anything about the player other than what I have seen on the field. I am sure she is a wonderful person, just as I assume you also are a wonderful person. (Anyone who rises to the defense of a Messiah coach and player is by definition a wonderful person in my book). As for criticising the coach, maybe I am reaching and maybe not. Yes he has done a wonderful job at Messiah, and I give him all the credit in the world. He is dedicated and knowledgable and has gotten results. But can he improve in the game coaching department - yes. And finally, with regard to your demand that I "find something else to do", I agree that this may be not be the best use of my time. |
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observer |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #9 | ||
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Posts: 5 10/06/05 07:55 AM |
Thanks for your comments. For the most part, they were lucid and meaningful. (JK)
One comment I had is about Manu G. Isn't he a fun player to watch? But the difference is that basketball players cannot play the full game. If Coach P could use Manu G the entire game, he would. He can't, so he puts him in where he thinks he will do the most good. Soccer is different. Players should be trained well enough to start and last the full 90. Lots of players never come out of a game and seem to do fine. My point of mentioning Annie was that she was such a dynamic impact player that she should have been out there every second. Anyone who knows soccer realizes that it just takes one tiny opportunity for a bona fide goal scorer to change a game. I would have started her and had her on the field every second unless she was injured, which she wasn't. And if she wasn't able to do the full 90, then she wasn't trained hard enough, wouldn't you agree? And that comes back to the coach. Although most of your comments were lucid, the part about #__ was not. I intentionally did not use her name in any of my posts because it was irrelevant and I didn't want to allow it to be found on a search engine. But more to the point, you use the word "assault". If your defintion of "assault" is describing an adult soccer player as "weak" then your definition needs retooling. Legitimate criticism is not "assault". As I said to another poster, if discussions of the strengths and weakness of adult college soccer players are not permitted for some reason, then explain why. Is it against the rules of the discussion board? Or is there some other reason that we are not to express our opinions about individual players? Are we talking about children here, or are we talking about adults? I thought that college students were adults. There was absolutely nothing personal, profane or nasty about my comments. They were descriptions of a soccer player's playing attibutes. Again, if you believe I am wrong, then don't just say that disagreeing with me is a waste of type. I am willing to be convinced that Messiah College has its top 11 players on the pitch at the start of every match. Convince me. But I do know where you are coming from and appreciate your motivation. Your comments about Coach Frey are on the money and I agree he is a huge asset to Messiah. My concern, though, is not about the past, it is about the present and whether Messiah will be able to get past the TCNJs, the Trinitys, the Wheatons, etc. in 2005. In order for that to happen, coach has to have his strongest players on the pitch for 90 and mayber longer. I just want Messiah to have its best shot to win a national title. Thanks again for your comments. |
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HoundsProud |
re: calling out | #10 | ||
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Posts: 13 10/06/05 09:55 AM |
The use of the student-athlete's number is clearly "calling-out" that particular player for abuse. It doesn't matter whether you are correct or not (and if are not at every single training session then you do not have the right to judge), criticizing a single NCAA student-athlete is not right. For example, ESPN has rules against this type of individual criticism for student-athletes and analysts have been suspended or fired for similar points, even for Division I athletes.
If you are a supportor of Messiah (and I myself am not), I do not understand how this would help them. Everyone knows the coaches and players pay attention to this website. You could just as easily just spoke in general terms without "calling out" the student-athlete. Please note the use of the term student-athlete over and over. People tend to forget that soccer is NOT the purpose of attending any of the schools. I enjoy this website and think the talk is great, until it crosses the line and I only posted because I felt the need to stop this type of criticism. Just for the record, do you know the exact reason Coach Frye played who he did, when and why?? Until you know the exact reason, I would refrain from any further criticism. |
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Go Falcons |
HoundsProud | #11 | ||
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Posts: 296 10/06/05 10:11 AM |
Hey HoundsProud are you a Moravian supporter? Just taking a guess based on the name and the fact that you seem familiar with Messiah's Program. If you are, could you fill us in on how they are doing this season (in another thread would be best)?
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FalconAlum02 |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #12 | ||
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Posts: 784 10/06/05 04:34 PM |
I'm not trying to convince you that Messiah has it's best 11 on the pitch at the beginning of every game, I'm conceding the point that last year they didn't, but not conceding that that is wrong. It's not realistic for you to have everyone, even your best, play all 90 minutes of games in NCAA soccer, and that's not the system that Coach Frey uses.
If we were under international substitution rules, you're absolutely right, Annie darn well better be out there from the start and ready to play the whole game. We aren't. There aren't unlimited sub rules, but very free substitution. So, you can certainly keep your best players on the field for 90 minutes, but they are going to likely be running up against fresher players that have been subbed. Coach Frey seems to use a philosophy similar to Coach Brandt, where he is constantly refreshing his offensive players, while keeping his defenders in for the whole game. The idea being that 65-70 minutes of your best offensive players pretty much fresh, and 25 or so minutes of solid bench players totally fresh is better than your best players going 90 and the natural wear down that is. With the rate of play that both teams try to use on offense, I think it's a solid philosophy. The main point here is that this particular criticism could apply to Coach Brandt as well. I watched him pull both D-Mac and Kai, 2 All-Americans, off the field in the national semi-finals for probably 10 minutes at the end of the first half in a 0-0 game. D-Mac was far and away the best goal scorer on the team, Kai easily the best at creating the attack. Did I get all flustered and concerned? No, because that's exactly what he'd done all year, and the last several with similar players. It's the system that got us to that game, and won so many before. To apply your logic, Dave Brandt has won 3 national championships in 5 years using a system that doesn't give his team the best chance to win, because his best players don't play the whole game. The only difference between that and the way Coach Frey used Annie Futato was that she sat the first 10 minutes of a half rather than the last. And I would note that Annie's numbers aren't up this year, despite starting every game so far. It's not about having your best 11 players on the field all 90 minutes. It's about fielding the best team you can field over the course of an entire 90 minute game. In the NCAA system where there is very liberal substution, those aren't the same thing necessarily. When a coach has the kind of track record that Scott Frey has amassed, I'm willing to give him the benefit of more than a few doubts when it comes to thinking about whether he knows how to do that or not. Quote: Other than your statistics, every single thing you said was your opinion, opinions I do not share, for the most part, and opinions I truly doubt I could change. But I will give you a little bit of where I come from. Cali is not Annie Futato, but she brings a lot to the table. She's not a goal scorer, this is true. Messiah had two big time ones last year, and anytime she played, she was alongside one of them. But, she did have more assists than anyone other than Annie and Hannah, despite playing less minutes than either of them. You point to the fact that she starts to justify a need for bigger numbers. Well, I didn't see nearly every game last year, but I did see all the most important ones, and in those, despite the start, Cali didn't get the minutes that Annie did. And she spent a ton of time out on the wing. Wing forwards often aren't meant to be goal scorers. Andre Burckhart started 22 games out on the wing for a national championship team last year, netting 1 goal and 7 assists. When it comes to discussing her, you basically want me to believe that Coach Frey identifies, recruits and trains talent well enough to win 101 games and go to 2 Final Fours in 5+ years, but is so blind with regard to talent that he puts someone out there every game who is hurting the team. Something doesn't compute in that equation. |
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Breeches |
what say you now... | #13 | ||
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Posts: 304 11/21/05 05:17 PM |
i guess he is good enough to get back to the FF?
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Go Falcons |
Re: what say you now... | #14 | ||
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Posts: 296 11/21/05 05:29 PM |
And making it back to the final four is no small task. None of the other three teams from last year made it back. Here's hoping the lady Falcons can notch their first championship.
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trizzle |
observer | #15 | ||
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Posts: 38 11/26/05 04:36 PM |
Hey observer--
What do you have to say about Coach Frey now?? Let's talk about his coaching moves in the final four...putting Rachel Horning in and creating the only good chance for Messiah. If you'd play the numbers he would have had a different player on the field (that scored more goals during the year), but wouldn't have created the chance that won the game. It seems to me that a coach that has had teams in the Final Four the past few years doesn't deserve to be second guessed and slandered by someone who gives his/her opinion on some message board. I'd like for you to go up to coach frey in person and outwit him...I'm sure you'd get schooled. ***are you happy now that he's won a title, or should he have done something different? if you were the coach, maybe they would have won 9-0!*** |
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FalconAlum02 |
Re: Is Coach ready for prime time? | #16 | ||
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Posts: 784 11/27/05 10:01 AM |
Is Coach ready for prime time?
Yes. Any other questions? |
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Go Falcons |
Coach of the Year | #17 | ||
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Posts: 296 01/24/06 01:50 PM |
Congrats to Scott Frey on being named Coach of the year.
His record at Messiah is 115-8-7 (pretty impressive by any standard) |
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FalconAlum02 |
Re: Coach of the Year | #18 | ||
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Posts: 784 01/24/06 02:37 PM |
Unreal. If he could keep this pace up, he'd win about 250 before he lost 20.
That's gotta be getting close to the best winning percentage in all divisions, all sports. I believe back a year or two ago, the only one ahead of Coach Brandt in that department was the football coach at Mt. Union. |
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